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Posté le 05-10-2007 à 00:26:26  profilanswer

It was suggested on another forum that I post here to see if anyone can identify which regiment(s) and what rank the gentleman in the pictures below was in. I know that he must have been in North Africa at one time as he is wearing a Colonial Medal (with Maroc bar) in the second picture. Also, as he won the croix de guerre (with palm and star) is there any chance of identifying who he actually might be?
Any help at all would be much appreciated.
Kind regards
John Lauper

mireille s​alvini
toujours se souvenir d'eux
Posté le 05-10-2007 à 10:15:33  profilanswer

Hello John,
welcome to this forum,I hope you'll be happy with us  :)  
my english is rather little,but I would try to help you;
on this photo,we can see a lieutenant because he has 2 stripes on his sleeves;
and as he has like 4 "v" turned upside down on his left arm (in French,they're called chevrons=herringbones),we can say that he was at the Front since 2 years and a half (2+1/2) when he was photographied
the first "chevron"=1 year,the next=6 months of presence in the army zone.
for the "croix de guerre",there isn't list with the soldiers'name who have recieved this medal;
the star means that the soldier has a citation (quotation?) on the regiment or brigade;
the palm means that the soldier has a citation on the army;  
the citation,I think you know that,want to reward the soldier for an act of bravery.
he has also a "fourragère" (like braided cordon) in his left shoulder:it means that his regiment has been awarded for acts of bravery (war actions)
well,I hope you understand what I would say with my english  :sweat:  
best regards,
j'édite ce message afin de le traduire en gros en français:
sur la photo,on peut voir un lieutenant (2 galons sur la manches)
et comme il a 4 "v" renversés sur la manche gauche,(appelés chevrons),on peut dire que cela fait 2 ans et demie qu'il était au front quand il a été photographié
le 1er chevron=1 an de présence,les suivants=6 mois de présence dans la zone des armées;
pour la croix de guerre,il n'y a pas de liste de noms des soldats ayant reçu cette médaille;
l'étoile correspond à une citation à l'ordre du régiment ou de la brigade
la palme correspond à une citation à l'ordre de l'Armée;
la citation veut distinguer (récompenser) un acte de courage du soldat.
il a aussi une fourragère à l'épaule gauche:cela signifie que son régiment a été distingué pour actes de courage (faits de guerre)

Message édité par mireille salvini le 05-10-2007 à 21:18:27
Posté le 05-10-2007 à 17:34:06  profilanswer

Juste pour préciser:  
Une citation = a citation
citer à l'ordre du régiment = to cite  
Ne vous inquiétez pas, je suis sure que John a tout compris.

mireille s​alvini
toujours se souvenir d'eux
Posté le 05-10-2007 à 21:09:38  profilanswer

hello John,
others precisions by Jean Riotte who has much more knowledge than me:
-the first photo,it's a lieutenant,it's right.
-the second photo,this lieutenant became a Captain:3 stripes on the top of his kepi.
he belong to an African Unit,exactly a Moroccan Unit:there is a croissant and a cherifin star on the kepi,this symbol is called "tough";
the color of the kepi is light blue;the stripe is green (for Tirailleurs Marocains),yellow (for Tirailleurs Algériens or Tunisiens)
en français:
voici d'autres précisions de la part de Jean Riotte qui a bien plus de connaissances que moi:
-sur la 1ère photo,c'est bien un lieutenant
-sur la 2ème,ce lieutenant est devenu capitaine:3 ficelles au képi
il appartient à une unité de l'Armée d'Afrique et très exactement à une unité marocaine ( croissant et étoile chérifinne sur le Képi; ce symbole est appelé un "tough" )
le képi est de couleur bleu ciel. Liseré vert pour les TM, jaune pour les TA et les TT.
kind regards,
Jean Riotte

Posté le 05-10-2007 à 22:53:47  profilanswer

Mireille> Thank you very much for your reply to my enquiry. This was very helpful. All I need to find out now is who the picture is actually of! He's definitely a relative of mine, as these pictures belonged to my great grandfather Albert Joseph Lallemant (who also fought in WW1) but they are not of him.
Kind regards

Posté le 06-10-2007 à 00:39:07  profilanswer

johnlauper a écrit :

Mireille> Thank you very much for your reply to my enquiry. This was very helpful. All I need to find out now is who the picture is actually of! He's definitely a relative of mine, as these pictures belonged to my great grandfather Albert Joseph Lallemant (who also fought in WW1) but they are not of him.
Kind regards

Do you have any more info like: name, first name(s) place and date of birth, place he died etc etc etc?

Http:// /
Posté le 06-10-2007 à 15:33:42  profilanswer

Peter> Unfortunately not. I have a suspicion that he might possibly be an unknown younger brother of my great grandfather so his surname would be Lallemant, but I don't know his first name. He would have been born in Paris in about 1875.

Bernard Pl​umier
Posté le 07-10-2007 à 05:52:58  profilanswer

Hi John
The very precise analyse of the picture made by Mireille makes me think that the "Croix de Guerre" with Army and Brigade citations would give that brave Captain a chance to be pictured on the pages of the French Newspaper "L'illustration", that showed pictures of the bravest.
I found only one Lallemant, but acting in an artillery unit, far from the Colonial marks found on your relative's picture.  
Could there be any other name (or spelling of the same name) we could be searching for ?

"- ... On s'amuse bien : tous les soirs nous enterrons nos copains !"
"La Peur" (en permission) - G. Chevalier

Posté le 09-10-2007 à 23:56:20  profilanswer

Bernard> Many thanks for your message. The surname could be spelt as either Lallement or Lallemand. Another possible surname is Pasquier as this was my great grandfather's mother's name.
Kind regards

Posté le 10-10-2007 à 18:41:48  profilanswer

I found 1 Lallemant that could be him, although not likely. He is a Luitenant and not a captain when he was killed in 1918. Besides this he was born in Paris in 1871, and acted in the 29th teritorial regiment.

Http:// /
Posté le 12-10-2007 à 02:28:14  profilanswer

johnlauper a écrit :

The surname could be spelt as either Lallement or Lallemand. Another possible surname is Pasquier as this was my great grandfather's mother's name.

Hello John,  
What strikes me most when looking at the 1st photo of your relative is his uniform:  
- First, its quite large collar,  
-Then, the absence of numbers on it – that is, the number of a regiment . How can we account that for?
-Last but not least, its quite huge pockets.  
I  wonder what kind of regiment you relative belonged to? ( metropolitan or colonial troops, infantry, artillery...)
Can  a uniform specialist in our forum tell?
Ce qui me  frappe le plus quand je regarde la 1ère photo est l'uniforme de votre parent:
- D'abord, son très grand col,
- Ensuite l'absence de numéro sur celui-ci, le numéro du régiment. Comment peut-on expliquer cela?
- Enfin, et non des moindres, ces poches assez énormes
Je me demande à quel genre de régiment votre parent a appartenu? (troupes métropolitaines ou coloniales; ....)
Est-ce qu'un spécialiste des uniformes du forum peut le dire?
I  have found  15  « Lallemand», 4 « Lallemant » and 18 « Lallement» altogether in the official yearbook of the French Army for 1913 (Dec. 31st, 1912), which ceased to be published at the beginning of the war. Unfortunately, I haven’t got the last edition of that yearbook, that is the one for 1914. (Dec. 31st, 1913).
Is there a date written at the back of the 1st photo?  
On condition that these officers are one and the same person, we can deduce that your relative was :
- either a second lieutenant who got his promotion as a lieutenant (for an act of bravery) during the war.
- or already a lieutenant at the end of 1912.
Metropolitan troops, infantry:
1) 34th Inf.Rgt. (71st brig., 36th div., 18th corps; – in Mont-de-Marsan)
Under the heading  “Reserve Officers”- Second lieutenants
Lallemant (L.C.R.)
No other information is given.
2) 3rd  Algerian “Tirailleurs” ( div. of Constantine, 4th alg. inf. Brigade. – Hq. in Bône; D. in Constantine)
Under the heading  French lieutenants
Lallemant (Ernest Joseph), 1 / 4  1902  (date of his promotion)
3) 2nd service of the staff headquarters  
Under the heading  Captains
June 27th , 1911 ( date of his promotion)
Lallemant (Léopold-Etienne-Georges)
Colonial troops, artillery:
4) Under the heading  Colonial artillery - Captains
Sept. 24th, 1911
Lallemant (Gaston- Raphaël – Joseph), West Africa.
The next transcription will come as soon as possible.
Kind regards,

Message édité par Astrud le 12-10-2007 à 02:43:23
Posté le 12-10-2007 à 10:40:31  profilanswer

Astrid> Many thanks for your very informative reply.
Unfortunately the 1st photo doesn't have a date on it. The picture is in the form of a postcard which has been trimmed down. The only clue to its age is the partial name and address of the photographer, ? Chavanes, ? 8, Rue De La Barre. Having searched on the internet I believe there was a photographer with this surname in Paris in around 1910, which looks about right for when the photo was taken. I also have a couple of photos which I now believe are of the same man when he was a boy and would put his date of birth to around the 1883-1885 period in Paris.
I look forward to seeing your next transcription.
Kind regards

Posté le 12-10-2007 à 21:18:53  profilanswer

Hello John,
Well, I have found  a  “A. Chavanes, Rue De La Barre,” in Lyon (not in Paris) on this site. [...] hp?ID=6663
He was specialized in photo-cards. Unfortunately no dates are given.
Maybe, the photo was taken in Lyon. Don't you have any documents mentioning that town?
Lyon may have been one of your relative’s garrison towns.  
I thought you might be interested in the following link to the 1905 yearbook which is downloadable. There is an alphabetical index of surnames: page 1457 for Lalleman-d /-t and Lallement. [...] pagination
By clicking on the arrow under 1905, you’ll get back to the 1903 yearbook. From the 1903 edition, you can get back to the 1895 edition, then back to 1884.
Some of the officers in the 1905 yearbook appear in the following transcription:
Metropolitan troops, infantry:
1) Geogr. service
1st section -  geodesy and astronomy
in Paris and  territories (France, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco)
Lallemand: Lt- colonel, detached (hors-cadre), chief of the section
2)19th Inf.Rgt. (11th brig., 22nd div., 11th corps – in Brest)
Under the heading  Captains
Lallemand ( Eugène- Louis- Alexandre) 24/ 6 1910
3) 21st Inf.Rgt. (26th brig., 13th div., 7th corps  - in Langres)
Under the heading  “Reserve Officers- Second lieutenants”
Lallemand ( M.M.A.)
4)106th Inf.Rgt. ( 83rd brig, 42nd div., 6th corps – in Châlons-sur-Marne)
Under the heading  “Reserve Officers- Second lieutenants”
Lallemand ( C.N.)
5)144th Inf.Rgt. ( 70rd brig, 35th div., 18th corps – in Bordeaux)
Under the heading  “Detached lieutenants”
Lallemand (Alfred- François-Marie –Joseph) in areonautics  1/ 4 08
6)147th Inf.Rgt. (24th brig, 12th div., 6th region – in Sedan)
Under the heading  Captains
Lallemand  (Jean- Auguste) 23/3 1907
7) Infantry
Under the heading  Captains
June 24th, 1912
Lallemand (Prosper-Joseph): Br., detached (hors-cadre), staff hqs.
8)3rd Foot Artillery Rgt.
Under the heading  Batteries – Captains
25/3 1909  
Lallemand ( Joseph-Auguste):  3rd Foot Regiment.
9) 8th Field Artillery Rgt. (20th  corps, 11th div.  – in Nancy and Lunéville (10th, 11th, batt. in Lunéville)
Under the heading  Captains
Lallemand ( Hippolyte-Victor- Georges) equitation instructor     25/ 3 1909
10) 17th Field Artillery Rgt. [2nd corps, 3rd div.  – in La Fère and Eu (10th, 11th, 12th batteries. in Eu)]
Under the heading  Lieutenants and Second lieutenants
Lallemand (Constant)   1/10 1906
In the paragraph called Promotion
Under the heading  Lieutenants proposed and promoted to the rank of captains
Lallemand (Constant): 17th Rgt.    
11) Artillery
Under the heading Lieutenant-colonel
Lallemand (Albert-Victor) detached (hors-cadre), army geographical service  
12) Artillery
Under the heading 2nd class officers
oct 12th, 1905
Lallemand (Claude-Célestin-Edmond) artillery depot in Alger
13)Territorial army,  “Chasseurs forestiers” corps
active sections and companies
7th army corps, 32nd bis company
Under the heading Lieutenant
Lallemand (C.A.L.)
14) Territorial army – Infantry
13th Rgt. (2nd region – in Compiègne)
1st class  a.-maj. doctor
Lallemand (Jean-Edouard) 23/ 7 1901
The last transcription for "Lallement" is coming soon.  
Kind regards,

Posté le 12-10-2007 à 23:15:00  profilanswer

Astrid> Many thanks for all the extra information you've found. Unfortunately I have no record of any ancestor in Lyon. As you say, he must have been stationed there at the time the picture was taken. I wonder if anyone knows which French regiments might have been stationed there just prior to WW1?
Kind regards

Posté le 13-10-2007 à 21:14:41  profilanswer

Hello John,
Here is the transcription for:
Metropolitan troops,
1)3rd Inf.Rgt. (58th brig., 29th div., 15th corps – Hqs. in Digne; P.P. in Marseille)
Under the heading  Reserve Officers
Lallement (C.E.F.): Lieutenant
2)43rd Inf.Rgt. (1st brig., 1stdiv., 1st corps – in Lille)
Under the heading  Captains  
Sept. 24th, 1908
Lallement ( Auguste-Rémi)  
3) [45th Inf.Rgt. (8th brig., 4th div., 2nd corps  - in Laon)
Under the heading  “Reserve Officers- Second lieutenants”
Lallement ( H.P.)
4) 101st  Inf.Rgt. ( 13th brig, 7th div., 4th corps – Hqs. in Dreux; P.P. in Paris)
Under the heading  “Reserve Officers- lieutenants”
Lallement ( P.C.M.)
5)135th Inf.Rgt. ( 36th brig, 18th div., 9th corps – in Angers)
Under the heading  Captains  
March 23rd, 1910
Lallement (Jean-Pierre-Decius-Maurice)  
6)150th Inf.Rgt. (80th brig, 40th div., 6th region – Hqs. in Mézières; P.P. in Saint-Mihiel)
Under the heading  “Reserve Officers- Second lieutenants”
Lallement  (L.N.)  
7) 4th Foot chasseurs
 ( 21st brig., 11th div. 20th region – Hq. in Saint-Nicolas-du-Port; D. in Brienne)
Lieutenant – Clothing (garment?) Officer  
Apr.1st, 1906
Lallement (Marie-Nicolas-Charles-Henri): 4th Foot chasseurs btn.
8)11th Chasseurs. (7th cavalry brig., 7th corps; - in Vesoul)
Under the heading  “Reserve Officers”
Lallement (Maurice Albert):  1st class medical officer  
9) 2nd field artillery rgt. [14th corps, 27th div.; - in Grenoble and Valence; 10th, 11th and 12th batteries in Valence]
Under the heading  “Reserve Officers - and Second lieutenants”
Lallement (M.J.R.)
10) Artillery staff officers
Under the heading  “1st class officers”
June 19th, 1902
Lallement (Eugène-Nicolas-Joseph):  
artillery depot (de la place de= of the fortress of?) Bizerte
11) Artillery staff officers
Under the heading  “1st class officers”
Jan.11th, 1906
Lallement (Jules-Henri): artillery depot (de la place de= of the fortress of?) Lyon
12) staff officers (officiers d’état-major)
Under the heading  “1st class officers”
Lallement (Octavien-Michel) in Lunéville
“1st class administration officer proposed and promoted to the rank of chief administration officer” to the artillery depot(de la place de= of the fortress of?) Lyon
Military maintenance (? Subsistances militaires)
13) Under the heading “1st class  administration officers”
Dec. 23rd, 1912
Lallement (Edmond, Jules, Emile) in the 6th region
Military health service
14) Under the heading “  2nd class medical officer”
Jan 11th, 1908
Lallement (Henri-Gaston)
Territorial Army
15) Under the heading “Captains”
Lallement (A.)
Territorial infantry
16) Under the heading “Captain”
June 10th, 1910
Lallement (Joseph-François) : permanent inspection (des remontes?)
Military supplies offices
17) Under the heading « Chief administration officers”
Oct. 12th, 1901
Lallement (Fulgence-Eugène-Armand) : T., 1st region
18) Under the heading “2nd class  administration officers”
Dec. 10th, 1907
Lallement (Etienne-Auguste): T., 6th region
Transcribed from the yearbook for 1913:  
"14th Army Corps: Headquarters in Lyon;  county town (chef-lieu) of the 14th region: Grenoble.
(Subdivisions: Grenoble, Bourgoin, Annecy, Chambéry, Vienne, Romans, Montélimar, Gap)".
Here is the list of the French regiments stationed in the 14th region in 1912:
Infantry: 97th rgt.(Chambery) - 98th rgt.(Hqs. in Roanne; Lyon) - 99th rgt.( Hqs. in Vienne; Lyon) - 157th rgt. (Lyon) - 158th rgt. (Lyon)  
-Foot Chasseurs: 11th btn.(Annecy) - 12th btn.(Grenoble) - 13th btn.(Chambéry) - 14th btn.( stationed in the 14th reg.; - in Grenoble; - Maroc)  - 22nd btn.(stationed in the 14th reg.; - in Albertville) - 28th btn. (stationed in the 14th reg.; - in Embrun) - 30th btn. (stationed in the 14th reg.; - in Grenoble)
- armoured cavalry : 7th rgt (5th brig., 6th div.; stationed in the 14th reg.; - in Lyon) - 10th rgt. (5th brig., 6th div.; stationed in the 14th reg.; - in Lyon)
- dragoons: 2nd rgt. (6th brig., 6th div.; stationed in the 14th reg.; - in Lyon) - 4th rgt. (14th brig., 14th corps; in Chambéry) - 17th rgt. (6th brig., 6th div.; stationed in the 14th reg.; - in Vienne)
-Chasseurs: 13th rgt. (14th brig., 14th corps; in Valence)  
- Foot artillery: 11th rgt.( 1st battery in Modane; 2nd, 4th and 5th batteries in Briançon; 3rd battery in Tournoux; 6th battery in Grenoble; 7th battery in Grenoble-Vulmis; 8th battery in Albertville)  
- Field artillery: 2nd rgt. (14th corps, 27th div.; - in Grenoble and Valence) - 6th rgt. [14th corps; - in Valence and Grenoble (10th, 11th and 12th batteries in Grenoble)]  - 54th rgt. [14th corps, 28th div.; - in Lyon (1st, 2nd and 3rd batteries in Sathonay)]
- Mountain artillery : 1st rgt. [14th corps; - in Grenoble (4th battery in Albertville; 2nd and 3rd batteries in West Morocco]
- 6th div. of cavalry in Lyon (54th rgt.)
- 4th rgt. (stationed in the 14th region; - in Grenoble)
Territorial Army
Territorial infantry :  
105th rgt.( 14th region; - Grenoble) - 106th rgt.( 14th region; - Bourgoin) - 107th rgt.( 14th region; - Annecy) - 108th rgt. (14th region; Chambéry) - 109th rgt. (14th region; - Vienne) - 110th rgt. (14th region; - Romans) - 111th rgt. (14th region; - Montélimar) - 1112th rgt. (14th region; - Gap)  
Territorial Foot Chasseurs:
 1st btn.(Annecy) – 2nd btn.( Annecy) – 3rd btn.( Vienne) - 4th btn.( Grenoble)
Territorial Cavalry squadrons: - 14th region
- dragoons:Chambéry  
– light cavalry: Valence
Territorial Artillery: – Territorial groups  
- 11thFoot artillery rgt.: Briançon and Grenoble
Kind regards,

Message édité par Astrud le 14-10-2007 à 11:27:03
Posté le 11-01-2015 à 13:15:18  profilanswer

I know this is 7 years after my original posting but I have only just discovered the identity of the man in the two pictures. His name was Rene Lucien Claudius Gravier, who was the nephew of my great grandfather, Albert Joseph Lallemant. Rene was born in Meudon in 1886, the illegitimate son of Marthe Lucie Victorine Lallemant. His birth was originally registered under the surname Lallemant but was changed in 1900 when Marthe married Charles Gravier in Paris. I believe that he may have been promoted from lieutenant to captain on 23 Jun 1917. This is the relevant entry from the Journal Officiel de la Republique Francaise (4 Jul 1917):- "Au grade de capitaine - M. Gravier, lieutenant du train des equipages du reg. de tirailleurs marocains - Maintenu"
I'd be very interested if anyone knows any more information about him during WW1.
Kind regards

Posté le 24-01-2015 à 09:37:54  profilanswer

You can find René Gravier's military file (registre matricule) in les archives de Paris. He is n°830 of the 6th bureau in Liste Principale of 1906.
As the file is not on line, you could ask on this forum if somebody can go to the Paris archives to get a copy of the file. You may also get a copy of the file directly from the archives, but I'm not sure.
http://canadp-archivesenligne.pari [...] D3R1%20198

Posté le 24-01-2015 à 12:35:03  profilanswer

Olivier> Many thanks for your helpful reply. I believe Rene died in Bordeaux in 1942 so do you think his pension file be held at the Vincennes military archives?
Kind regards

Posté le 24-01-2015 à 14:28:07  profilanswer

Yes and no !
As all the French men, he was drafted and his classe is named by the year when he gets 20 (1906). As René lived in Paris, his "dossier matricule" (see my previous message) is to be found in the archives de la Seine boulevard Serrurier.
But as he was an officer, there should also be a dossier in Vincennes military archives (see link below). I had a look and did not find the reference of his dossier. As he was 56 when he died, he may have still been in the army in 1942 which could explain that I did not find it as the repertoire only goes until 1940.
http://www.servicehistorique.sga.d [...] siers.html

Posté le 24-01-2015 à 14:35:57  profilanswer

Olivier> Many thanks again.

IM Louis J​ean
Posté le 10-02-2015 à 19:45:42  profilanswer

Hello everybody ;)
René GRAVIER is transfered from Moroccan troops (without precision) to the 15th horse-drawn squadron in Orange on April 30, 1919 (source Journal Officiel sur Gallica) confirmed on October 16, 1919 (source Journal Officiel du 19 octobre 1919)
Two months later he is transfered to the 19th squadron in Paris, on december 5 , 1919 (source Journal Officiel du 6 décembre 1919 sur Gallica)
He is transfered from the 19th squadron to the 18th squadron in Bordeaux on May 19, 1920. Then from the 1st Coy to the 140th automobile Coy of the same squadon (source Journal Officiel du 27 juin 1920)
On August 9, 1923, he is transfered to the 123th squadron in Morocco (source Journal Officiel du 10 août 1923 sur Gallica)

He resigned (Granted leave of absence ? mis en disponibilité pour cinq ans ?) on June 10, 1927 (source Journal Officiel du 25 mai 1927 sur Gallica)
Appointed major (always laid of) on Marsh 25, 1930 (source Journal Officiel du 25 mars 1930 sur Gallica)
Officier de la Légion d'Honneur on June 22, 1939 (chevalier on June 16, 1920) (source Journal Officiel du 30 juin 1939 sur Gallica.

Message édité par IM Louis Jean le 15-02-2015 à 18:37:02

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Posté le 10-02-2015 à 21:37:10  profilanswer

Etienne> Thanks very much indeed for your reply. You might be interested to see Rene's citation for his Croix de Guerre which I've attached.
Kind regards

Message édité par johnlauper le 10-02-2015 à 21:51:04

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