Hello to all of you
 
I'm very interested in La Grande Guerre and at least once a year I visit Verdun.
I'm allways staying at camping Les Breuils of Celine.
 
Usually I visit the battlesites of Verdun/Argonne and their graveyards. I was wondering if on the graveyards soldiers are buried who were shot by firing squad. Their must be some graves, on account of the mutiny. But as far I know, there is no information on this point.  
The English Soldies who were shot at dawn are all registered and their graves/graveyards are known.
 
Could anyone help me on this subject. I would like to visit their graves.
 
Thanks,
 
Mark
 

Hi Mark,
 
It depends on the place and time where and when these men were shot.  
 
As for me, whose main concern is the Vosges/Alsace area, this is what I can tell you: some of these men have been buried in a communal cemetery, others have been buried in a military cemetery with the "Mort pour la France" mention, others have been buried in a military cemetery without any mention (neither "shot at dawn", nor "Mort pour la France" ), others have no known graves.
 
Best regards,
Eric

Hi Mark, hi all,
 
Just for your information and as you used to visit the Verdun battlefields and the graveyards soldiers, go to the Fleury devant Douaumont destroyed village you will see the stella of two soldiers who were shot at dawn and then rehabilitated.
 
Best regards
 
Alain
 

Thanks for the information.
 
I'll hope not to bother you too much but is there any info of soldiers graves who were wrongfully executed (shot at dawn) in France.  I simply can't imagine that there were no executions for desertions etc.
 
Although, I've visited Butte de Vauqouis on May 1st this year. The guide told me that is was standard procedure for an officer to shoot the soldier in the back if he refused/was afraid/frozen to climb out of the trenches. Personally I've never heard this story. Could anyone verify this??
 
Next time I'll be visiting Fleury and search for this monument. Could you be so kind as to give a hint where I can find this monument?? It's noty in the village itself.
 
Thank you already.
 
PS The Campsite of Les Breuils has switched to new owners. Celine and Gilles stopped. Curious because when I've visited Les Breuils on April 30th upto May 7th they were still there.
 

Hi Mark, hi all,
 

 
It is a pleasure to help you. Some soldiers were executed for desertion or self mutilation. Example should be done to avoid other ones.
 

 
Personnally I can't prove that but I have heard about that and some movies talked of that. I think it is true
 

 
It is very easy to find the stella in Fleury. You just have to go inside of the destroyed village and walk to the "ravin des vignes". The stella is at the beginning of the ravin.
 
If you need any other help, please ask.
 
Regards
 
Alain

Hi Mark,
 
"The guide told me that is was standard procedure for an officer to shoot the soldier in the back if he refused/was afraid/frozen to climb out of the trenches." : certainly not.
 
1. The notion of a "standard procedure" in such cases is sheer nonsense, and should, anyhow, be confronted with both contexts of time and place, which are no little matter: the way some men were shot in 1914 is far different from that of some later executions. If these are not taken into account, no serious study of the topic can be done. One more "legend" of the Great War, unfortunately...
 
2. When such shootings happened, they were mostly carried out by NCOs, not by officers, as far as soldiers' memories testify of these.
 
Best regards,
Eric

Alain,
 
Thank you very much. May I use your expertise/knowledge of the Verdun region next time I visit Verdun. There is still much to learn and see.
 
Greeting  
Mark (real name)

Eric
 
Thank you. It maybe a legend, but as far as I know in a legend there will allways be some kind of truth in it. Still NCO's shooting there own men will have an impact on the troops itself.  
 
And once again, I still have to learn much. I can speak French reasonable (I think) but reading is just one step too much. Which is a pity because there is much literature of the Grande Guerre in French but not translated into English. Dommage pour moi.......
 
Mark

Mark,
 
When you write "as far as I know in a legend there will allways be some kind of truth in it," I agree with you. I wouldn't say no officer has ever shot one of his own men, nor would I say such a thing was usual. The truth must lie somewhere in between. I'm afraid the legend comes from mixing various sources and / or events: some officers -and even generals- physically threatened their troops with firerams, some NCOs shot down some men too, but I'd be glad to find -at least- one testimony in which one identified officer shoots one of his men. As far as I'm concerned, I have never read any, but, I insist, I'd be glad to find one.
 
See you,
Eric

 
Hi Mark,  
 
No problem if you need my help for your next trip in the Verdun battlefield, you can get it. I am not the best expert for this battle and other guys in the forum have a huge knowledge about it. However I can share my experience if needed.
 
Regards
 
Alain

Hi everybody,
 
Eric, I have no testimony of an officer shooting his own men, but a testimony of an officer ready to do so.
See the blog of 347th RI, it was on January 1915 during an attack on the Linguet (near Reims).
http://347ri.canalblog.com/archive [...] 19672.html
And I suppose that the General of the division was allright with this :
http://347ri.canalblog.com/archive [...] 19735.html
It is in the diary of the 52th division.
 
The stella in Fleury was erected in october 2009 in memory of two officers of the same regiment 347th RI : HERDUIN et MILLANT, shot at dawn (in fact in the afternoon) with no judgement, no war council on the 12th June 1916.
They were rehabilitated in 1926.
http://347ri.canalblog.com/archive [...] index.html
 
Henri HERDUIN is buried in the family grave in Reims, Pierre MILLANT is buried in national cemetery in Fleury devant Douaumont grave n°6177.
 
Best regards,
Christophe
 
(sorry for my bad english, I hope Mark will understand. School memories...)

Christophe, Alain and Eric
 
Thank you all for the information.  
 
Christophe, No wonder that I didn't find the memorial on my previous visits it's a new memorial.
 
I'm glad and honoured for the regiment and for France that both officers were rehabilitated. I've read the letter of sous lt Herduin. It's very moving indeed. It only shows the enormous gap between the high ranking officers and front soldiers/officers/nco's.
 
On my next stay at Verdun I'll be visiting the memorial and the grave of sous lt Millant.  
 
Christophe may I use your information on the Dutch Forum (http://www.forumeerstewereldoorlog.nl/index.php). They certainly would like to know about the new memorial and thehistory about this monument.
 
Furthermore, I'm astounded by your good English of all of you. Makes it a little bit easier for me.  
 
Cordialement,
 
Mark

Hi Mark,
 
Ik kan daarom nog steeds in het Engels (bedankt voor het compliment).
Mijn Nederlands is niet helemaal bekend, maar Google is mijn vriend ... (met behulp van Google Translate)
U kunt gebruik maken van wat er op de blog. Bedankt aan de bron en de URL te identificeren.
Ik ben blij dat de Nederlandse bezoekers kunnen kijken net als wij in deze periode.
see also : http://www.crdp-reims.fr/memoire/l [...] erduin.htm
Met vriendelijke groet,
Christophe
 
In english (with google too, it's more easier and I'm tired...)
 
Hi Mark,
 
I can therefore continue in English (thank you for the compliment).
My Dutch is not famous at all, but google is my friend ... (using google translate)
You can use what is on the blog. Thank you to identify the source and the url.
I am pleased that the Dutch visitors can look like us in this period.
see also this url : http://www.crdp-reims.fr/memoire/l [...] erduin.htm
 
Friendly yours,
Christophe

Christophe,
 
I'm moved by the way you tried to talk to me in Dutch. Please talk to me in French or English. It makes me feel a bit more at ease. Holland didn't participate in the Grande Guerre and it makes me humble to meet all the sites and history I've seen.
 
Furthermore, I'm 52 years of age and I've learned that if you visit a country you should at least try to speak their language whatever the cost. So excuse me if I use this International Forum because if I tried to write French it will be disastrous. I used to work for a very big French Insurance Company starting with an A and I've learned to speak and listen French for a bit.  
 
Once again, I'm proud for the quick responses I've received. I've learned on this Forum more then I've ever read and I hope to see one of the members in the future.  
 
Cordialement, sincere
 
Mark
 

Hi Mark,
I can't help you on this either.  However, you may find the French movie "Un long dimanche de fiançailles (2004)" (A Very Long Engagement) starring Audrey Tautou, very interesting.  Her fiancee, a French World War I soldier, gets shot and she goes to look for him to find out what happened...
Narayan

Hello WW1 USA
 
Thank you for your information.
I 've seen the film on you tube, and I have to tell you that it was really impressive.
 
Cordialement
 
Mark